I was having an interesting conversation this week with some other guys after class. We were talking about a particular student who has a tendency to hurt other students when sparring. He goes balls to the wall all the time with them. The interesting part is that his game is very stagnant and he feels very frustrated about it. He’s very sincere and wants his game to get better really badly. He works as hard as everyone else. He attends the same classes. His game is stagnant though. As we talked about it I remembered another student who was the same way. He’d inadvertently hurt other students when rolling. He’d feel really bad about it after. He was really a nice guy. Both of these guys are. When you watched either of them roll though it would be obvious that they were frustrated the whole time.
Wanting too much
I really think what is/was holding both guys back from improving was wanting it so much. They both were highly emotional about getting their game to the next level. They wanted it more than anyone else at the gym. That wanting actually got in the way of progress. I think they hurt their partners because they weren’t aware of them. That frantic wanting the tap so badly blinded them to the existence of the other person. The only thing they could concentrate on was the win. The paradox is that if you aren’t aware of your partner you’ll either hurt them or get terribly frustrated. Not being aware of your partner when you roll means the only option you have is to impose your game on them. You can’t adapt or respond adequately because you aren’t tuned in. If you aren’t tuned in then frustration will build. You can’t help but get frustrated if you aren’t sparring WITH someone else.
I really think this impedes your development in BJJ. I’m not saying that you have to have the opposite feeling. It’s not about being casual about the game. It’s more a matter of being able to attend to what’s going on in the present moment and not focusing on some future event (the tap). The unfortunate thing is that you miss much of the joy of the game if you focus to much on the end game. It’s the enjoy the ride thing.
Give and take
Good Ju Jitsu is more dance than fight. You have to both impose your game and yield and take what the other person gives. You marry the two energies. If you want the win too much you’ll find that you are only doing the first and not the second. This effectively cuts your game in half. That’s why when you see really good guys it looks lazy really. They don’t look like they are expending a tremendous amount of energy in their game. They aren’t. They are flowing with the give and take.
This is why we always say to leave your ego off the mat. I know it’s really impossible to do that in earnest but we have to try to roll without too much wanting. This doesn’t mean we have to not care about the outcome. It means we have to be flexible in intent when we roll. If we are so intent on beating the other guy right in this minute we will always be frustrated. Instead, if we are enjoying the game and feeling the give and take. If we are present in the very moment, we can get the tap, choose the appropriate action, get the sweep, achieve the escape; all as a matter of course.
It’s a paradox of Ju Jitsu. The ego makes us blind to the very thing we need to attend to; the flow of movement and intent in the moment. That’s what I’d see when I watched these two guys roll. I could recognize it in them because I feel that way at times myself. I can feel when I’m too concerned or engaged in the end game. When I’m trying too much to “win.” Or looking for the tap and not attending to the present moment. Every time I do that I get lost. I lose Ju Jitsu.
Sublime joy
There is a moment of sublime peace and joy I get on the mat at times when rolling. It’s that sheer joy of movement that comes from the kinesthetic feel of knowing you moved in exactly the right way at exactly the right time. It’s taking some movement that your partner gave you and creating with it something beautiful and creative. That’s Ju Jitsu. It requires a mindfulness and attention to the now. It’s the thing that keeps many of us coming back. It’s not ego based. It’s now about tapping or getting tapped really. I feel it when I get a beautiful movement. I sometimes feel it when someone gets a beautiful movement on me. With the right mindset getting tapped in BJJ can be a beautiful thing. When my mindset is right I’m not frustrated at all by getting tapped. In fact I’ll often smile and laugh. The laughter is pure joy free from ego. It’s the realization that I just experienced someone else taking what I gave them and making something creative and beautiful with it.
Frustration is the opposite of this. It’s the ego not getting what it wants. I experience this on the mat as well. It’s hard. Ju Jitsu is the great equalizer. The other day I got tapped out by a young blue belt. As a brown belt my ego told me that this shouldn’t have happened. That I should have been able to turn the tables on him. It bothered me for a couple of days despite me knowing and believing that it shouldn’t. It made me question my abilities and whether or not I deserve the rank I have. I know this happens for all of us. I take it as a gift now though. Reminders like that are gold in Ju Jitsu. They remind me of my fallibility and my need to be mindful and present when I roll. After a few days I was able to get back on the mat and roll again with joy. Ego again in check.

Cane,
How are you? Hopefully you remember me. You and I had a real good roll last camp.
Anyway I have been angry with people lately Being set on the “W” (win). I had a long talk about this with Luis G. the other day. I am to the point that before I roll with anyone I want to let them tap me as many times as it takes them to get bored. At which point then we can learn and roll with that out of the way. You have these guys that remember every time they have tapped you out and how they did it. When I roll with others at my gym I don’t think about beating them. I just get caught in the moment. I feel if I am focused on the “W” then I only play a certain game and I am stagnant but if I roll to control position then I flow and learn. I am not saying never go for the win but not always. I learn so much more when I flow roll.
What are your thoughts?
Hi Ray,
Thanks for the comment. I have been exactly where you are. It’s really no fun when you roll with a guy that is too intent on the win. Often these guys are rolling frustrated. If you are too concentrated on rolling for the win then you have to be frustrated because you aren’t winning until you get the tap. These are the guys who will hurt you or themselves when you roll. They don’t do it on purpose, it’s just that they don’t attend to the cooperative nature of the roll. They only are content with imposing their will on the other guy. That’s not Ju Jitsu. That’s something else entirely I think.
The thing is that if someone is playing chess you can’t play checkers. You have to be playing the same game. I used to try to roll gentle even with guys who were trying to take my head off. I had the idea that if they saw me rolling gentle then they’d realize it and do the same. I got hurt too many times doing that. Thankfully I have enough experience now that when I get a guy like that I can usually turn up my game and play his. Once I win the pissing contest a couple of times they’ll either calm down or move on. Maybe that’s my ego getting in the way, but it keeps me safe. I keep special skull rides for those guys. It’s not that I’m trying to be a dick (maybe a little) as much as I’m trying to keep myself safe. If the other person isn’t attending to your safety then you have to do it yourself. Rolling gentle never did that for me with these guys. Maybe if I was Rickson I could do that. But I’m not so instead of a playful roll I go into 100% A game. If I get top I crush my way to a tap. With these guys I’m 100% about the tap. I have to be because that’s the game they are playing. I don’t like rolling this way but once I’m in the roll with a guy like this it’s the only way to complete the roll and stay safe.
I wish I had a great answer or way to deal with these guys. If it persists beyond a couple of weeks for a new guy then I’ll have an honest talk with them about how to be a good training partner. In fact, I’ll do that periodically at the end of my classes. I think people want to be good training partners. Some people just don’t know how. I remember a guy at the gym who literally took about 6 or 7 years to develop into a good training partner. He’d still turn on the beast every once in a while. It was hard wired in. Everybody had a story about him “accidentally” hurting someone. He totally knew about it and felt awful when it happened. Something in his brain though kept making him do it again and again.
As a coach I tend to put these guys with other guys they won’t hurt. Or with other guys that will give them a beat down. I’m glad to help them to understand that there is a different way to roll that will be better for everyone but at a certain point it becomes their deal. Thankfully at the gym we’ve got some monster big guys who are sweethearts on the mat. They are great for working with the new, young, aggressive wrestler guy.
This is a great topic. It’s probably THE topic in jits (aside, Mr. Prevost…why are you using the japanese spelling of jiu-jitsu??).
Jacare at Alliance calls these guys “crazy horses”…sometimes they are wrestlers or judoka, but sometimes just guys who know no other way (lots of rangers come to mind).
I’ve casually pulled guard on too many of these people and then you are in a titanic struggle for your life. If you are lucky enough to get on top, I try to use the patented tom oberhue side-control fatigue tap method…since most will gas out. But it is irritating.
Only slightly worse are guys that won’t even engage, like literally keep pushing away and won’t commit to doing anything at all. WTF? Are we training or what?
Fortunately, I just started back at Alliance in atlanta and they all whip me slowly…great flow. I lost count but I think I tapped about 12 times one day. It was great.
howard
I’m with you Howard. Being on bottom with one of these guys is no picnic. I love the term “crazy horses.” It’s an apt description. Thankfully those guys either transform quickly to good training partners or go away mostly. I haven’t seen too many stick around and do that kind of behavior long term.
I had no idea that the spelling I was using was the Japanese instead of the Brazilian one. Mostly I use it because it’s easier for me to remember. I have a hard time remembering where to put all the I and U letters…
Glad you are at such a good club. Alliance Atlanta is supposed to be really freaking awesome from what I hear.
I like the chess/checkers analogy. The guys that just want the win I usually roll with them and smash them but it is no fun. Then there are the guys that you are evenly matched with and you wind up getting hurt. I can see that happening in a tournament but not in training. To me it has no place. Train to learn fight to win. There is one particular guy that I have had, “The talk” with but he just does not get it and I don’t think he ever will. I just want to learn and have fun.
Me too Ray. It’s touch when you are evenly matched and you wind up with a guy like that. I had a great roll with one of our purple belts yesterday. It was great because we were both able to be playful and creative through the roll. At the same time neither of us was giving up on a sub attempt. It was just the kind of roll that keeps me coming back again and again.
Man great post Cane. I got alot of that. Ill have to remember to come back and read this post whenever i get frustrated with my jits.
Anton
Thanks Anton. It’s a subject that’s close to me because I know how healthy BJJ can be when done right. I also know how a couple of bad apples can spoil a class too…
I’ve heard through the grapevine that one such person thinks that I am using strength. While it is possible that I’m lacking self-awareness…I think it is improbable. What I think they are experiencing is me dropping my weight on them. They have to use lots of strength to escape, so they assume I’m using strength as well.
Similarly, if they try and sweep and I have a stable base…it feels, to them, like lots of strength being used to oppose the sweep, when it is really good position/base.
So, part of this is likely ego as has been mentioned…but part of it might be that they are assuming strength is being used when it is really other, better developed attributes.
howard
If you are breathing hard and grunting then it’s strength. Otherwise it’s just good ju jitsu I think.
“Dang, you’re strong!” is one of the worst insults in ju jitsu…
Fantastic post Cane.
Authentic,honest, inspiring.
Funny, I guess I’m not one of these guys at all. Most of the advice I get from my training parters these days involves me needing to step up my aggression – stop being so timid when passing open guard and what-not.
Hard to find that balance, I suppose. Especially only seven months into the game.
Cane – Here’s my little rhyme for remembering how to spell Jiu-Jitsu: ” It’s not just ‘Ju,’ it’s ‘I’ before ‘U’ “
Thanks Larry. I think they mean pace when they say aggression? I see these as slightly different. Aggression is more rigid and less flexible. Fast paced allows room to modify and adjust along the way… ?
Yeah, that’s probably more like it. I tend to hesitate inside certain positions – it’s like I get stuck rummaging through the toolbox without really being sure what tool I’m looking for. I’m sure it’s just part of the learning process.
Brilliant read, and exactly how so many people must feel at times when training BJJ. I’ve had this far too many times, I’ve not long started training BJJ and come to think of it… I probably did this alot when I first started. The only thing is I’m a really small guy (smallest at my gym) so I think this bad habit went out the window pretty quickly – thank goodness for that.
I think it’s a panic thing for most beginners, or a natural instinct thing (along with grabbing wrists to control someone!) If you are on the ground and you don’t really know all that much technique just to fall back to physical assets that you have. I’ve never been happier I’m not a strong or big guy because it demands me to rely on proper technique all the time!!
Hello Mr. Prevost,
I was introduced to your site by my instructor and I must say I love what I am reading. I just started out in BJJ been doing it for 4 months now, so I am relatively new. But I can already relate myself to those two guys you were talking about. It seems all I think about is the “W” as Ray put it and the tap I also get frustrated when I am unable to perform a technique after so many tries. So I do is just take a breather and sit out for a minute or two. I find that that helps out a lot.
Reading through this forum has made me opened my mind a little more. I actually have a class tomorrow and I shall see about learning to control that. You have to start somewhere and why not do it on a fresh day.
Mr. Prevost I just want to say thanks for the read. And I will be keeping myself updated on your website.
All the best,
J. King.
Justin,
Something I wish I was told when I first started was that being on the bottom struggling to get out was exactly where I was supposed to be the first year. If you find yourself there it doesn’t mean you are doing anything wrong. Just means the top guy has more experience than you. It takes time to build a base of students newer than you that you can work your top game against. The most important part is that you keep showing up and enjoying the journey. Most everything else will take care of itself if you attend to those two important points for sure… Thanks for the kind words!